Three Contract Terms Subcontractors Should Negotiate

Claire (00:11)Hi, everyone, and welcome to Billing and Chilling, where we get real about construction billing and what it actually takes to get paid. Every episode, I'm gonna sit down with people who live and breathe the business of subcontracting to figure out how subs can avoid risky moves and get paid what they're actually owed. Today that means getting into contracts because a huge part of getting paid is understanding what you signed and when you can actually negotiate. My guest today is Neil Wilcove, who spent 25Claire (00:36)plus years as a construction attorney and has seen every way a sub can get exposed or protect themselves in a deal. Neil, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you. So taking back to the beginning, what got you into construction law and what's kept you in it?Neil Wilcove (00:53)I just love the people. I've been practicing construction law since two thousand. So I guess we're now up to twenty-six years. it's just s salt of the world people that wanna do good work and get paid a fair wage.Neil Wilcove (01:09)I've been in this business, get back to this business, as you know, for a very long time, and I've been blessed to be part of it.Claire (01:16)Yeah, absolutely. I feel the exact same way. and we met years ago now, I guess, at a CFMA regional show. and you've been really, really involved with different associations, specifically CFMA and ABC. what is it about like the construction community that keeps you so active in it?Neil Wilcove (01:33)yeah, I've been heavily involved with CFMA and ABC for a couple of decades now. for me it's the blend of the blue-collar folks, the the guys and gals that are on the front lines that are actually building the buildings, and then the people in the what I call back of the house functions, your CFOs, your controllers, your HR managers, your risk managers that are helping the business.Neil Wilcove (01:59)do what it's supposed to do and not get itself in trouble. And, you know, all around, whether it's through ABC or CFMA, you know, at at the local and national level they're just amazing people.Neil Wilcove (02:11)People can come from all walks of life and be successful in construction. it doesn't matter, quite frankly, what your educational background is.Neil Wilcove (02:20)If you work hard and you're committed, you can be successful in this industry. And that's what's absolutely amazing to watch from an outside perspective.Claire (02:31)Yeah. Yeah, I would definitely agree. I would say one thing though that we talk about often, and I think the biggest challenge is actually managing your cash flow. Like a lot of these businesses are really profitable, but subcontracting businesses are the number two most likely to go out of business after restaurants. So it is a really risky business to get into. And, you know, we work with a lot of contractors that are just getting started and mom pop shops. and I think one of the biggest challenges is going fromClaire (03:00)This industry that used to be, a handshake business. And I used to work for a general contractor on the East Coast. And when we would work with subcontractors that we had worked with year over year, like decades, you know, they would be less concerned about reviewing the contract. And we'd always be like, hey, take a look. You know, we're working with a new client, our contract has changed a little bit. And it's really changed from this handshake industry to you see these contracts that are 60 to 70 page documents.Claire (03:28)And you and I were chatting the other day about you know, how subcontractors kind of approach these contracts,Neil Wilcove (03:33)I I feel like people will negotiate more for a fifty thousand dollar car, than they do for a five million dollar contract, because they know they're gonna get the car, right? So they negotiate it, but they're afraid they're not going to get the deal on the subcontract. And so they ultimately do not negotiate terms that they absolutely need to be negotiating.Claire (03:55)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (03:58)This all goes back to the entrepreneurial spirit of these folks, right? People don't just start construction companies. They're working for somebody else. And then they realize, man, I can do this differently or I can do this a little bit better. And so they decide to hang a shingle and start their own company. The problem with that is they don't know actually how to run a company. They know how to build something, but then getting into the back of the house functions.Claire (04:08)Mm-hmm.Neil Wilcove (04:24)HR, insurance, things like that. They just don't know. And one of the biggest risks, is negotiating contracts. And I always joke with people negotiating anything for that matter, is like dating. If you don't ask, the answer is always no.Claire (04:28)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (04:41)if that were the case in life, they would never get married, they'd never have kids, because the fact is you've got to negotiate, you've got to ask. obviously you're not going to be able to negotiate necessarily every term, butNeil Wilcove (04:54)The most important thing is to know the risk. What is it that you're giving up in these contracts? You may not be able to negotiate it out, but a lot of times people don't even understand the risk until it blows up on their face and now they've got to deal with it. So at the very least, I just tell people, know your contracts. Not only should you know your contracts as the owner of the business, your project manager should know.Neil Wilcove (05:17)I would even argue your superintendent should know because if something bad happens on a project and this the superintendent doesn't really understand what that might mean, whether it's a notice provision or something catastrophic happens, then upstream can't protect that person. So that's why I think it's important. If if nothing else, read.Neil Wilcove (05:41)the actual subcontract. And if you don't understand what it means, ask somebody. Call me up. I'd be happy to talk you through what the contract actually means.Claire (05:51)yeah. I think and I know you've been to our my presentations in the past, but that's always a common theme that I weave into, even if I'm talking about just like billing workflows, right? It's like every single person should read the contract, even the accounts receivable person, they should understand what you're contractually obligated to provide in order to get paid on these projects. so we talked about making sure that you're actually making the ask of your client and negotiating these contracts.Claire (06:17)you know, you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. So if you were to talk to a new subcontracting business and you're talking to the owner who is just drowning in all the paperwork. and you're like,Claire (06:29)Here the top three things that I want you to look for in your contract and negotiate and push back on. What would be those three things?Neil Wilcove (06:37)certainly. I think indemnity is number one to me. anything that happens where the indemnity clause and defense clause is invoked means something catastrophic might have happened on that project. Now that catastrophic could be something like construction defects.Neil Wilcove (06:54)God forbid it could be something of an injury or death. but it it is something that is what I would call bet the farm type of risk that the indemnity clause absolutely needs to be at the very least reviewed and negotiated to manage that risk appropriately. now there's a lot of them, but the top three I would also argue I would also argueClaire (07:17)Ha ha ha.Neil Wilcove (07:20)You know, and it from a subcontractor standpoint, the pay of paid provision.Neil Wilcove (07:25)You know, subcontractors should not necessarily be taking on payment risks for anything beyond what is their ultimate responsibility. But a lot of times we take on that risk of the general contractor being paid, whether their payment is being withheld.Neil Wilcove (07:43)For things that the subcontractor is responsible for, other subcontractors responsible for, or having nothing to do with the subcontractors. And so those two are the to me the the big two from a risk management standpoint. Obviously, we can talk about change orders, we can talk about insurance, things like that as well. But you know, if if you're not gonna get anything else changed, those are the two to talk about. And equally as important,Neil Wilcove (08:08)You can you you can be doing work, let's just say I'm at I'm based out of Georgia. I do work all over the country, but I'm based out of Georgia. And I'll have a client that's a Georgia business say, okay, I'm gonna go do work in Tennessee. Well, great. What is the pay if pay provision in Tennessee? not be the same as it is here in Georgia. So you may think you've got a great contract or you understand the pay if pay provision, but each state is actually different.Neil Wilcove (08:33)The indemnity clause, the anti indemnity statutes, almost every state has one. So what is actually allowed for under state statute related to indemnity? And then obviously we can talk about lien laws all day long, but you need to know the lien laws. You need to absolutely understandNeil Wilcove (08:50)what it is that you're allowed to do under the lien laws of that particular jurisdiction. And I will tell you, every state has nuances that are different from every other state.Claire (09:00)no, no, totally. this has been an area that we've really dug into at Sightline because of the variation and how complex it is. And we have many contractors that are growing and work in multiple different states and keeping track of those laws and your responsibilities is really difficult. So we have a free resource on our website that has all the state-specific laws, and it's not even just what state you're working in in.Claire (09:23)But it's also where you are in the ladder on the project. So are you working for the general contractor? Are you working underneath a sub? it is just really, really difficult. And if you miss any of these deadlines, you lose your rights and you're unable to protect the business. SoNeil Wilcove (09:37)Correct.Neil Wilcove (09:37)And then the also the other component of that is is a public works job, is it a private job? Where do you fall in the line as a subcontractor?Claire (09:43)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (09:46)Are you in privity or in contract with the general contractor? Are you in privity or in contract with the subcontractor? You do need to understand where you fit in this mix because your rights could be different. Do you have to provide notice to the owner? Do you have to provide notice to the contractor that you're actually performing work to enforce those rights? There's a lot to it.Neil Wilcove (10:07)People don't take anything else away from this, is make sure your project folks have buy-in and what that contract says.Neil Wilcove (10:16)Where the contract is, what the laws are, to the best of your ability. And if you you need to have questions, go to Sightline's website and you know and and learn it, not just you, it's gotta be the project people. They need to understand what it is and what the risk is if there is not payment.Claire (10:28)Yeah.Claire (10:35)Yeah, well it's it it's interesting because in the beginning you said you love the construction industry because you feel like anybody that's really hardworking can be successful in this industry. And I feel like the deck is stacked against subcontractors. I feel like we're making it harder and harder for them to succeed and we're pushing the risk down on them in contracts. And you know, we're creating these crazy payment terms and saying, you know, if you want this project.Claire (11:03)You're gonna get paid in a hundred and twenty days and take it or leave it.Neil Wilcove (11:09)There's a lot of that. And I think from the standpoint of good trade partners, there are a lot of general contractors that will in fact negotiate fair terms for their subs because they want long-term relationships with their subcontractors. Because the better relationships that everyone has, the better the project is gonna go, period.Claire (11:11)Ha ha.Neil Wilcove (11:37)There are also general contractors, and there's developers, by the way, that do this too. I mean, this isn't a general contractor thing. There are developers that have just decided I'm more important than you. If you want this job, you will sign these terms. Subcontractors are ultimately going to have to make the decision whether they're willing to take that risk on. and will that trade partner be there at the end of the day if something bad happens?Claire (11:37)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (12:04)are a lot of folks out there that I know of on the general contractor side that will not only support their subcontractors, both on the project if something if something happens, they'll be supportive upstream and make the claims on behalf of the subcontractor and help them out, but they'll also might might make payments to them, whether they got paid or not, even if there is a pay of pay provision because they honor those relationships.Neil Wilcove (12:31)Ultimately, if your backlog's not very large and you need the job because you got to keep the lights on, you're more willing to provide more risk to yourselves to keep the lights on. If you're doing great and you've got a you know $100 million backlog as a subcontractor and you really don't need the work, you may be less willing to negotiate some terms or less willing to take on that job.Neil Wilcove (12:55)SoNeil Wilcove (12:56)it each project stands on its own. obviously, the owners of the companies need to understand the risk of each of those projects. I remember in the old days, I won't mention names of of a big developer, but they were hiring one contractor to do work all over the country to build them what they needed.Claire (13:13)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (13:13)One project went bad, it then basically ended up screwing up most of their jobs because they default on one job, they hold money on the others, and now the subs on 20 jobs can't get paid.Claire (13:30)Yeah. The general contractor I used to work for, we had centralized pre-construction so that we could also always look at like how many projects we have with an individual subcontractor. because you don't want your subcontractor spread too thin or, you know, all all your eggs in one basket.Neil Wilcove (13:45)that's where the relationships come in and to have open conversation about hey, can you really handle this job when you've got all these other jobs sitting out there? and then obviously you get into bonding capacity and how that all works, but but that's where the relationships come in and say,Claire (13:53)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (14:02)Yes, I'm committed to doing this work for you. Here's what we can do. Here's how many folks we can allocate. I've got this other job that's going to be finishing up soon and I'll have a whole team of folks that can come on. But if you're not having those both internal conversations and external with these trade partners that you actually want to have long-term business with, and you're not forthright on your ability to complete this work,Neil Wilcove (14:29)that's going to cause a problem.Claire (14:30)Yeah, absolutely. We have a lot of clients who are established and they will follow the general contractors that they have good relationships with to new projects. But for some of our newer contractors or contractors that are breaking into a new market, is there something from a legal side that you can look out for that you can see within a contract? Okay, this is gonna be, you know, a collaborative relationship, they're gonna treat me like a trade partner or the other side where it's like all the risks gonna be pushed down to me. I'mClaire (15:00)just a subcontractor to them. They don't care if this is the one project that puts me out of business. Like what are some of the things you can look for in a contract to understand if this is going to be a great long-term relationship or not?Neil Wilcove (15:12)I think the number one thing is what are the terms of the actual subcontract that's being provided to the subcontractor? And if the general contractor is willing to at least listen to some suggestions on changes. If the answer is no, we don't do that, then you gotta wonder, well, why is that? And and I'm gonna give an example.Claire (15:36)Like I won't acceptClaire (15:37)any red lines. Yeah.Neil Wilcove (15:38)I won't accept any changes, which you knowNeil Wilcove (15:41)you hear quite a bit. as is when I'm representing my developer clients or general contractors, we do accept changes. We will. They're reasonable. But I'll give an example because it still irritates me. I had a situation recently where I was helping a sub negotiate a contract against a general, and the general basically has large enough that they have in-house counseling.Neil Wilcove (16:05)Basically telling me that all of my changes are not going to be accepted, but that they would consider them. But then in the end we had a meeting and he didn't like almost any of my changes because he thought that they they weren't really thoughtful. So I said, Well, I disagree with you. these are the same changes that you would be asking for upstream to your developer. Let me see your contract.Neil Wilcove (16:31)You're bound by the prime contract, which you have agreed that you've already seen So I'm like, well, if we're gonna be bound by it, that's the other thing. Get a copy of that prime contract. you can't change the terms of it, but know what your upstream contractor agreed to with the developer. And a a good general contractor will absolutely negotiate out some of those same things that we've just talked about.Neil Wilcove (16:54)So I get a copy of the contract. And almost all of the things that I was negotiating upstream, they had negotiated out of the upstream contract. I'm asking for the same things that you asked for.Claire (17:00)Ha ha.Claire (17:04)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (17:08)That you got So, why would you give me crap that actually have more risk than what you have upstream? That's not exactly the fairest way to handle things. I understand why you're doing it. You've got to run your business. You don't want to have less risk than your subs. But to haveNeil Wilcove (17:28)So much less risk than you're willing to give your subcontractor in negotiating the same terms, That's a problem. But again, if you're a a smaller subcontractor who's just trying to make their way through the business, build a reputation, and and you you're you're doing that one project at a time.Neil Wilcove (17:48)What I'm saying is not necessarily practical, right? You may have to just take the job. And if that's the case, going back to what I said earlier, at least know what the risk is. Don't go into it blindly. Whether you negotiateClaire (17:59)Yeah.Claire (18:01)I think that is a really good thingClaire (18:02)to call out is actually asking for the contract that the owner has. that the that your GC has with the owner.Neil Wilcove (18:07)Yeah, you can take theNeil Wilcove (18:11)Correct.Neil Wilcove (18:11)You can take the financial terms out. We don't need to see that. But if they're if you're bound by that agreement, it is absolutely critical that you know what that agreement says.Claire (18:13)Yeah.Claire (18:20)Yeah. And if they're unwilling to share it with you, it should be a red flag.Neil Wilcove (18:24)That should be a red flagClaire (18:25)Yeah. going back to the terms that you n you would push contractors to negotiate, because we only came up with two. I wanna add one that I always encourage contractors to look at is the retainage payment terms. oftentimes there isn't a lot of wiggle room with the pay-when-paid contract terms. It's just the way the industry operates.Neil Wilcove (18:34)Yeah.Claire (18:49)But you can often get cash in the door faster if you can push back and negotiate on the retainage terms. Again, this is another thing that every state has different laws around but maybe there's an opportunity to have certain line items that don't hold it or pushing for at 50% complete, we're knocking it down from 10% to five, or things like that. Any tips with retainage?Neil Wilcove (19:12)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (19:12)So so going going back to the prime contract,Neil Wilcove (19:15)The prime contract will dictate what you think you can get away with on the retainage front because they will also negotiate. I try to negotiate a lower retainage or 10% up through 50% and then 5% or 0% thereafter. So it ends up at the end being 5%. as a subcontractor, you want to be fair to the general contractor as well. And so if the general contractor has 5% retainage upstream, they shouldn't be collecting any more than 5% downstream. Because if they are, they'reNeil Wilcove (19:44)Making money off of it. Right? They're collecting 10, paying out five. And so you try to at least mirror, what the retainage provision is upstream. but also what is considered to be something that is retainage is being held by. So for instance, if purchasing equipment.Neil Wilcove (20:02)Right? It's just equipment. Why should retainers be held on equipment? Right?Claire (20:04)Yeah. Yeah. Pushing for like thoseClaire (20:07)specific line items like general conditions and equipment rentals and things.Neil Wilcove (20:11)Right.Neil Wilcove (20:11)But again, you also don't want to get so you know, they say pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. You don't want to be a hog in this regard. Yeah. You don't wanna be you don't wanna be to the point where you now lose trust in the general contractor because you're asking for more than than they're receiving. But the fact is it works both ways.Claire (20:17)I've never heard that.Claire (20:28)Y yeah.Neil Wilcove (20:29)and then obviously from your point earlier, every state law is a little bit different.Neil Wilcove (20:34)So that also is important to know what the retainage rules are in each particular jurisdiction, because then you can negotiate that out.Neil Wilcove (20:41)Yes, that is a big one because it ultimately is being money being held until completion of the job unless you get early release, which you can also negotiate in your subcontracts.Claire (20:54)Yeah. pivoting a little bit over to you know, hot topic AI, we talked about reading contracts, understanding them. and I think it's easier than ever these days to actually at least get a high-level overview of your contract.Neil Wilcove (21:01)Mm.Claire (21:15)From AI, you know, you can upload it to Claude or Chad and be like, explain this to me like I'm seven years old and it will do a decent job on that. What are some of your thoughts and maybe like some risks that contractors should be looking out for if they're starting to like leverage AI a lot?Neil Wilcove (21:31)Okay, so my my biggest concern with using AI is whether using an open system or a closed system. here's why. If you're using an open, like you go to Claude and you plug in your subcontract.Neil Wilcove (21:43)and have it review the contract for how can I help myself negotiate better terms than what's in here. My initial concern about that is you may have just violated the confidentiality provision in your subcontract if you have one, because you just downloaded that to an open system. I love.Neil Wilcove (22:04)Generative AI and I'm looking forward to seeing what how different it's gonna be in a year than it is now. But you absolutely need to understand that when you are putting something on the system, you are letting the entire world see that. And did you by chance, not intentionally, violate your contract terms by putting that out there in open system? So if you're using a closed system, great.Neil Wilcove (22:28)That's the way it should be. You can get an enterprise system from any of these folks. Some I think are better than others. I Claude is amazing. I think Gemini works pretty well too. I think Copilot's a little bit weaker. then Chat GBT, of course, is pretty good, but it's gotta be a closed system. That is to me is the most critical thingClaire (22:29)Mm-hmm.Neil Wilcove (22:46)mind you, it's not.Neil Wilcove (22:48)Intuitive to think about it that way at all because everyone says use AI, use AI, use AI, but there has to be guardrails within that. And then the other most important aspect of AI is it's it's a baby, it's learning. doesn't really matter what system you're using, it's not going to be 100% correct. I'm not even sure it's 80% correct. It's going to give you great ideas,Claire (23:03)Ha ha.Neil Wilcove (23:14)and and great talking points for negotiating contracts or estimating and so forth. But you absolutely have to double check the work that it's done and the results that have come out of it, because it absolutely could be incorrect.Neil Wilcove (23:31)I use the old Ronald Reagan term of trust but verify. It is absolutely critical that whatever you are downloading in and asking it to do, you have to verify that information is correct.Claire (23:43)It'll confidently deliver the wrong answer. similar to my dad when we were younger, he used to always do trivia with us and he would just like have the answer and it wouldn't always be right. And then once we had iPhones, he was like, These stupid things are ruining my trivia. Guess we could all verify and be like, Wait, dad, that's not right. Yeah, yeah, we always believed him and now now we canNeil Wilcove (24:02)Yeah, but he said it w he said it with conviction and you believed him. Right.Claire (24:08)cut through the bullshit a little bit there. so for a subcontractor who maybe is like AI curious but a little bit more hesitant, where do you think they should actually start with leveraging some of these tools?Neil Wilcove (24:21)I'll be honest with you. I think if you are, especially someone older like really don't trust, it yet and you don't really understand it, I am not sure you're going to get the love you want out of it without playing with it first. So I would use it on the personal level first.Neil Wilcove (24:40)side. I know this sounds corny, but for instance, meal prepping. Great tool for meal prepping. there is no risk. It doesn't really matter what the meal prep is. we went hiking a couple weeks ago out in Utah.Neil Wilcove (24:52)We used AI for the meal prep We had enough food to feed 30 people. but you don't realize that until you start actually cooking. but that's what AI gave us on the quantities of what we needed.Neil Wilcove (25:04)And again, these are for the folks like me that are that are a little bit weary of it, a little bit older, don't really understand it. How do we start using it?Neil Wilcove (25:13)But from the standpoint of the contracts, if again, closed system, go ahead and start throwing your contracts in there, seeing what it come what the results come back out. Cool. But don't rely entirely on that. Start testing it out. Maybe it's a job that you've already done. Maybe you're going to use it to teach your younger people what terms to negotiate. but I would start on the personal side and start getting used to it.Claire (25:36)Mm-hmm.Neil Wilcove (25:42)Now,Neil Wilcove (25:42)in the law firm setting, we also using AI in a lot of different instances, both on the MA side, contracting side, and then litigation side as well. but it's like riding a bike. You gotta start somewhere, you gotta learn how to ride that bike, and eventually you're going to become proficient in it, but you gotta learn it.Claire (26:01)Yeah. I love the idea of doing something like a little bit more low risk with it to get comfortable like, you know, here's what I have in my fridge, give me a recipe using all these ingredients but where do you see AI actually like reshaping the construction industry over the next few years?Neil Wilcove (26:19)well, I think everyone's gonna be using it. And quite frankly, I think within the next three to five years, if you are not using some type of generative AI closed system for your company, you are going to fall behind, both on the contracting side, estimating, I think it's going to be absolutely huge. I'm a little afraid of ofNeil Wilcove (26:41)Where estimating is going to go over the next 10 or 15 years? Are we going to lose all of our estimators because the computers are going to be doing the estimating? But I mean, that is a concern for any job, quite frankly. I know my job probably within the next 25 years is going to be absolutely different than it is now.Neil Wilcove (27:00)But estimating, obviously reviewing contracts, negotiating contracts, absolutely critical. I think from this HR standpoint you know how your people sign in, what PTO they have, all of that is going to be, an evolution over time.Neil Wilcove (27:18)And I think on the payment scale, right? you know, you could have 20 projects and you forget where you are on that project. is your lien rights 45 days? 90 days? 120 days? There's gotta be some system in place that's going to help you manage all of that.Neil Wilcove (27:35)The system itself will set guardrails up for how you should be managing your lien rights or your bond rights. Those are the things are to me the most critical and then again, there's programs out there now that do this. And that's why I'm saying it's going to happen. You've got to use it. it will think eventually for itself.Neil Wilcove (27:59)And soNeil Wilcove (28:02)I don't really know where it's gonna go. certainly on the contracting side, AI is going to have a major role in risk management and negotiating terms. but the the the biggest thing for me is if you're not using it, you need to be using it, even starting on the smaller scale.Claire (28:20)Yeah. wrapping up the conversation, I wanna focus on Sightline's mission a little bit here. our goal is to protect contractors and get them paid. That's our number one priority, and everything we build at Sightline is based around that. helping contractors manage the laws around lien rights to make sure that they're protecting the business, you know, automating as much as possible as it relates to putting together billing.Claire (28:45)packages and lean waivers, et cetera. and I think it's a just a massive problem in the industry how long it takes to get paid. The average right now is 96 days for subcontractors. So aside from like everything that we're doing on a technology perspective, who do you feel like really has the power to actually make change happen in terms of payment timelines?Neil Wilcove (29:09)Well let me start off with this. I'm old enough now that I've been through four cycles on this front. And you can predictNeil Wilcove (29:18)when payment terms are going to be extended because something's not right in the economy. You can't really touch it, you can't really feel it. but you hear the rumors of people going from 45 days. Then it leaks up to 60, then it leaks up to 75, then all of a sudden it's 90 days and you're having to file your liens or doing whatever you need to do to protect your rights.Neil Wilcove (29:41)But as it relates to how things can get changed the laws are what they are.Neil Wilcove (29:46)You know, at the ABC level and the contractors and working with their subcontractors and their trade partners, how do we get laws changed to make things better how do we get owners to pay quickly? or if there is a dispute, how do we resolve disputes quicker than what we have to go through now?Neil Wilcove (30:07)I do think our legal system is losing some efficiencies. And so, from a contractor's perspective, how do we make the legal system more efficient so that you don't have to spend a whole bunch of money on lawyers? You can just figure out how to get paid quicker.Neil Wilcove (30:27)and whether that's you're taking a haircut that's up to you. That's a business decision. But there's a lot of things that in the process get bogged down because of the laws.Neil Wilcove (30:40)You know, they the the old saying goes, get into politics or get out of business. And the fact is you need to know what your legislators are doing, what the laws are, and if you don't like a law, how do we change it? And a lot of organizations will go in. No different than us changing the retainage rules here in Georgia or Tennessee. or how does the anti-indemnity statute, how does that get changed?Neil Wilcove (31:07)It's you have to go down and lobby and you have to go down and get legislators to understand they're not paid, they can't feed their families. Period. So that to me is the most critical aspect of it. But also know when the economy turns, payment is going to slow down 2001, I'll never forget, obviously 08, 15.Neil Wilcove (31:29)2021 and it's happening now again. But this time I can't figure out what it is. I don't know if it's the war. I don't know if it's the the aspect of interest rate issues or the uncertainty of elections, but people are holding money more than they were before.Claire (31:30)Mm-hmm.Claire (31:46)Yeah.Claire (31:49)It is an interestingClaire (31:50)time too because we see certain clients holding money and in general payment terms being less favorable for subcontractors and we're seeing things getting drawn out ninety, a hundred and twenty days. But then on the other side you have the data centers who are paying speedy quick. so yeah.Neil Wilcove (32:07)they are hyperscalers and they haveNeil Wilcove (32:09)a lot of money. And if you're doing work in the data center space, you know, good for you because you're gonna do well, you're gonna make money, and you know payments are gonna come in in a timely fashion.Claire (32:21)Yeah.Neil Wilcove (32:21)coolClaire (32:21)I mean, I feel like we could talk for hours. We're just getting into like all these little meaty topics, and then I'm cutting you off, unfortunately. But it's been great chatting today and thank you for the advocacy you do for contractors through ABC. we do the same at ASA. I'm on the national board and we just had our fly in.Claire (32:37)I think the same day that you guys were on Capitol Hill. Yeah. so I I really appreciate everything you do for the industry and I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. So thank you so much, Neil. we loved having you.Neil Wilcove (32:39)You guys are there, yeah. Yeah.Neil Wilcove (32:50)No, thank you, Claire. Appreciate you having me.